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	<title>Comments on: I surrender &#8212; Lisp really is better than C++</title>
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	<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/</link>
	<description>Miscellaneous ramblings on miscellaneous topics</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Head Geek</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Head Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-412</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m closing the comments on this entry, it&#039;s getting nothing but comment spam now.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m closing the comments on this entry, it&#8217;s getting nothing but comment spam now.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Head Geek</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator>Head Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-387</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have to agree with Chris Barts: learning Lisp has shown me ways to do interesting things that just wouldn&#039;t have occurred to me before.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And I found the parentheses pretty daunting at first too, until I really dug into the language and realized that they &lt;em&gt;aren&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; superfluous. They&#039;re there for a reason, and it&#039;s a good one. A lot of them look rather alien if you&#039;re not used to the syntax, but when you consider that they replace both parentheses and curly-braces in C/C++, it&#039;s not nearly as bad as it looks at first. A good editor deals with most of them for you.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Chris Barts: learning Lisp has shown me ways to do interesting things that just wouldn&#8217;t have occurred to me before.</p>

<p>And I found the parentheses pretty daunting at first too, until I really dug into the language and realized that they <em>aren&#8217;t</em> superfluous. They&#8217;re there for a reason, and it&#8217;s a good one. A lot of them look rather alien if you&#8217;re not used to the syntax, but when you consider that they replace both parentheses and curly-braces in C/C++, it&#8217;s not nearly as bad as it looks at first. A good editor deals with most of them for you.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Donnie Cameron</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>Donnie Cameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-386</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here&#039;s my opinion. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The big problem with Perl is that it&#039;s easy to learn, but difficult to learn right. It has a tough learning curve and it can take years to master, even if you already know many other programming languages. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However, I&#039;ve never met a person that uses the advanced features of Perl (closures in an OO context, hash dispatchers, higher-order methods, super general functions, and so on) that didn&#039;t write beautiful, concise, fast, and bug-free code. People that really get Perl (and there are precious few of those because of the learning curve) don&#039;t bash Perl. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The only relative advantage that I see in Python or Ruby is the learning curve. It&#039;s much easier to become a good Ruby or Python programmer than it is to become a good Perl programmer. But aside from that, on a language-feature by language-feature comparison, Perl does almost everything better than those other languages. If everyone that wrote Perl code grokked the language, there wouldn&#039;t even be any readability issues. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for Lisp... I think it is much better than Perl or pretty much any other language I&#039;ve tried. I can say that even though I am not a good Lisp programmer. Learning a little Lisp made me a much better Perl, C++, C#, and even PHP programmer. When I program in any of those languages now, I see where they try to be a little like Lisp and I feel the pain of having to work around the limitations of the language. Working around limitations always means more work and more time.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my opinion. </p>

<p>The big problem with Perl is that it&#8217;s easy to learn, but difficult to learn right. It has a tough learning curve and it can take years to master, even if you already know many other programming languages. </p>

<p>However, I&#8217;ve never met a person that uses the advanced features of Perl (closures in an OO context, hash dispatchers, higher-order methods, super general functions, and so on) that didn&#8217;t write beautiful, concise, fast, and bug-free code. People that really get Perl (and there are precious few of those because of the learning curve) don&#8217;t bash Perl. </p>

<p>The only relative advantage that I see in Python or Ruby is the learning curve. It&#8217;s much easier to become a good Ruby or Python programmer than it is to become a good Perl programmer. But aside from that, on a language-feature by language-feature comparison, Perl does almost everything better than those other languages. If everyone that wrote Perl code grokked the language, there wouldn&#8217;t even be any readability issues. </p>

<p>As for Lisp&#8230; I think it is much better than Perl or pretty much any other language I&#8217;ve tried. I can say that even though I am not a good Lisp programmer. Learning a little Lisp made me a much better Perl, C++, C#, and even PHP programmer. When I program in any of those languages now, I see where they try to be a little like Lisp and I feel the pain of having to work around the limitations of the language. Working around limitations always means more work and more time.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Khoo</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Khoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-384</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Almostly exactly what Greg said: Haskell/Erlang, and then Ocaml&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almostly exactly what Greg said: Haskell/Erlang, and then Ocaml</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alexander Solovyov</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Solovyov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-383</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Perl is not only about bad syntax, it is also about bad objects. Python is much better at both of that points.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perl is not only about bad syntax, it is also about bad objects. Python is much better at both of that points.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lispfan</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>lispfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-382</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;she, if you count the number of parentheses in (my-function) and myFunction() they are the same. Uniform syntax is a feature!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>she, if you count the number of parentheses in (my-function) and myFunction() they are the same. Uniform syntax is a feature!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Barts</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Barts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-379</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Power isn&#039;t just &quot;how easily you can do it&quot; but also &quot;would it ever have occurred to you to do it&quot;. If you only know C, it likely wouldn&#039;t occur to you to develop automated unit tests in that way. Lisp&#039;s powerful metaprogramming facilities open up new ways about thinking about problems, and make &#039;normal&#039; things seem like problems. (&quot;Why is most of my time spent writing the exact same code?&quot;) Sapir-Whorf may not be very true in terms of natural languages, but in terms of programming languages it is all too relevant.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Power isn&#8217;t just &#8220;how easily you can do it&#8221; but also &#8220;would it ever have occurred to you to do it&#8221;. If you only know C, it likely wouldn&#8217;t occur to you to develop automated unit tests in that way. Lisp&#8217;s powerful metaprogramming facilities open up new ways about thinking about problems, and make &#8216;normal&#8217; things seem like problems. (&#8220;Why is most of my time spent writing the exact same code?&#8221;) Sapir-Whorf may not be very true in terms of natural languages, but in terms of programming languages it is all too relevant.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: she</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>she</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-378</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;PS: to those that bash perl, you may continue to waste valuable time.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Perl is very practical. I know many old C programmers that use it to &quot;get things done quickly&quot;. They get their job done faster than writing it in C, so thats fine for me.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But perl syntax is extremely 1980ish. Perl never bothered to make itself prettier, if you are fine with that - thats cool. But it has got good competition in Ruby and Python, and I can understand everyone who will choose these over perl - the ugliness of the ancient UNIX legacy is the main problem. (Shell scripts are also very ugly, but a perl script quickly gets more complex than a shell script)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;PS: to those that bash perl, you may continue to waste valuable time.&#8221;</p>

<p>Perl is very practical. I know many old C programmers that use it to &#8220;get things done quickly&#8221;. They get their job done faster than writing it in C, so thats fine for me.</p>

<p>But perl syntax is extremely 1980ish. Perl never bothered to make itself prettier, if you are fine with that &#8211; thats cool. But it has got good competition in Ruby and Python, and I can understand everyone who will choose these over perl &#8211; the ugliness of the ancient UNIX legacy is the main problem. (Shell scripts are also very ugly, but a perl script quickly gets more complex than a shell script)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: she</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-377</link>
		<dc:creator>she</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-377</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I am sorry but I must admit (while I myself love ruby) both ruby and python have a sane count of verbosity without sacrificing readability. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;When I look at Lisp, or even worse C++, the level of extra verbosity just scares me. (In lisp the needless use of () )&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Am I the only one who thinks C++ templates are DAMN ugly? It feels like satisfying a parser ...&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry but I must admit (while I myself love ruby) both ruby and python have a sane count of verbosity without sacrificing readability. </p>

<p>When I look at Lisp, or even worse C++, the level of extra verbosity just scares me. (In lisp the needless use of () )</p>

<p>Am I the only one who thinks C++ templates are DAMN ugly? It feels like satisfying a parser &#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Toso</title>
		<link>http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/comment-page-1/#comment-376</link>
		<dc:creator>David Toso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekblog.oakcircle.com/2007/08/22/i-surrender-lisp-really-is-better-than-c/#comment-376</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;... and I feel like I could keep learning more about lisp for the rest of my life.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; and I feel like I could keep learning more about lisp for the rest of my life.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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